CNN.com - Transcripts (2024)

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): The BBC called the murders, "Utterly devastating," in a statement released to staff.

Late into the evening, police investigators were still searching for evidence, in the cemetery. However, they are not, at this time, searching for any other suspects.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And it really goes without saying almost that a triple murder in the U.K. is almost unheard of, one that could have involved a crossbow, utterly, utterly beyond everyone's imagination here, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes.

Nic Robertson. Thanks so much.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

The first Democratic senator calling for President Biden to step aside, as even Nancy Pelosi raises doubts about his decision to stay in the race. How the White House is dealing with a fresh wave of pressure, tonight?

We'll talk about it all with a top Biden ally, in the Senate.

Meanwhile, Michael Cohen is taking his fight, against his one-time boss, all the way to the Supreme Court. More on his warning about what happens, if he doesn't succeed, when Cohen joins me, in moments.

And a bankruptcy hearing for another former Trump attorney, Rudy Giuliani, devolved into absolute chaos today, as he clashed with the judge, and is also on the verge of losing all of his assets.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE. We do start with breaking news tonight, as the first sitting Democratic senator has now just broken with President Biden, with Peter Welch of Vermont calling for him to leave the race, and I'm quoting him now, "For the good of the country."

Senator Welch wrote in a searing Op-Ed tonight, saying, quote, "We cannot unsee President Biden's disastrous debate performance. We cannot ignore or dismiss the valid questions raised since that night... I'm calling on President Biden to withdraw."

Now, I should note, so far he is the only Senate Democrat to go this far. It's further even than what you heard from Colorado senator, Michael Bennet, when he was here, last night.

But two more Democrats, in the House, echoed his calls today, now making it a total of 10 lawmakers, on Capitol Hill, who say that they believe it's best for President Biden to leave the 2024 race.

All of this has created a fresh wave of pressure, on the White House, today, as President Biden has been very clear and firm in his insistence that he is not leaving the race. As many of his allies seem to be wondering today in a new line that we're hearing, repeatedly if you're paying close attention, if that's really his final answer.

Listen to what his longtime ally, Nancy Pelosi, how she put it in a very carefully-worded statement, earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): It's up to the president to decide if he is going to run.

WILLIE GEIST, "MORNING JOE" CO-ANCHOR, MSNBC: He has said he has made the decision. He has said firmly this week he is going to run. Do you want him to run?

PELOSI: I want him to do whatever he decides to do.

And I've said everyone, let's -- let's just hold off. Whatever you're thinking, either tell somebody privately, but you don't have to put that out on the table until we see how we go this week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Notable comments there, of course, what she's talking about this week, or the world leaders who were here for the NATO summit, in Washington, President Biden dining with them, tonight, saying essentially wait for that to be done.

But that moment there with Pelosi caught many people that I spoke with inside the West Wing off-guard today. They know better than anyone how carefully she often chooses her words.

That comment came just hours before George Clooney, a longtime Democratic donor, who just co-hosted a $28 million fundraiser for Biden, added to those calls for him to leave the race, saying that he believes the President, who was on the debate stage a few Thursdays ago in Atlanta, is the same one that he saw at that fundraiser.

And I'm joined now by the Delaware Democrat, who holds the same Senate seat that President Biden once occupied, who also co-chairs the President's reelection campaign, and is one of his closest allies, on Capitol Hill. Senator Chris Coons.

And Senator, it's great to have you here. I know you just finished a softball game. So, busy night for you.

President Biden has insisted that he is staying in this race.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Yes.

COLLINS: So, when you hear the former House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, say that he has to make a decision about what he's doing. Do you think that's her urging him to make a different decision?

COONS: No, I think Speaker Pelosi is one of the most capable, most agile politicians I've ever met. If she wants to give a message directly to our President, I think she knows how to do it. I think what she's reflecting is that there's lots of folks who are talking. There's lots of concerns. There's lots of casual and out-in-the-public conversation about what's next.

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He has made a decision. He has communicated that to all of us. So, me, as a Campaign Co-chair, and a Senator, who got that communications from the President, I'm clear about what's next. He's our -- he's going to be our nominee at the convention. He is going to be our candidate for president, in the fall. He is going to be our next President of the United States.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, what we keep hearing, from House Democrats, and other Democrats and senators who keeps saying, President Biden's got to make this decision, President Biden's got to make this decision.

I mean, you just said he's made the decision.

COONS: Yes.

COLLINS: So, what's -- are they signaling they want a different decision?

COONS: I don't think so. I think Nancy Pelosi is fully capable of speaking clearly, if she thinks that he should make a different decision.

There have been lots of members of my caucus, who have called for him to do press conferences, and unscripted television interviews, and campaign events.

And in the two weeks since the debate, he's campaigned in North Carolina and Pennsylvania, in Wisconsin. He's campaigning in Michigan on Friday.

I'll remind you. This is NATO week, here in Washington.

COLLINS: Yes.

COONS: There's also 31 heads of state here. He's doing a press conference, tomorrow night, after meeting with all 31 of those heads of state.

He is doing the job, of leading the free world, fighting for freedom in Ukraine, supporting the expansion of NATO, growing our economy at home, a record amount of investment in manufacturing, bringing prescription drug prices down, all great things, and running for reelection.

So frankly, he's doing the interviews. He just scheduled another one with Lester Holt, for Monday. He's doing the campaign events. He's done rally speeches.

COLLINS: Yes. And--

COONS: He just did an event today.

COLLINS: We've seen how the--

COONS: --with the AFL-CIO. And they're going well.

COLLINS: And we've seen how they're prepping, for the press conference, tomorrow, his first solo one since November.

But amid what's happening on Capitol Hill, those Pelosi comments this morning that had everyone's attention. Have you spoken to President Biden? How's he feeling about how the reaction is going over, on the Hill?

COONS: Look, right after the debate, I think he was chastened. He felt like that, I messed that up. That was not good. Chris, what do I need to hear? What are people saying? What's the input?

He's spoken with governors, House members, senators, mayors. He asked for and got a lot of input over the first week after the debate. And frankly, he was optimistic that he could turn this around and still win. And so am I.

If you know one thing about Joe Biden, it's that he's been knocked down harder by life, several times than any man I've known.

COLLINS: Have you--

COONS: He suffered an incredible tragedy, in 1972; an incredible tragedy with the death of his son, Beau. And what has defined him, as it defines the American middle-class, is when knocked down, he's gotten back up. And he is determined to do that, again.

COLLINS: You've kind of been in this intermediary position, where obviously, you know the President incredibly well. But also, you're talking to all these senators. COONS: Yes.

COLLINS: You know all of them. I'm sure they're coming to you as well.

What are you telling him about what you're hearing from your fellow senators?

COONS: That a lot of my colleagues have expressed concerns, that they needed to see him go out and campaign, do a long-form interview, do an unstructured press conference.

But I have said to my colleagues, remember who Joe Biden is. We can't set a bar so high that who Joe Biden has been for 30 years can't clear it. He's always had a slight stutter. He's always spoken a little off the cuff. In fact, what people loved about Joe Biden was he really spoke his mind.

So, one of the things I struggled with yesterday at the NATO 75th summit. He gave a great speech. And on another news channel, the only thing they covered was one sentence, where he mispronounced two words.

Look, any of us, you, me, anyone who's on TV, or on the floor of the Senate, or President, who gives speeches over and over and over, you can always find a little clip that doesn't look perfect.

Joe Biden's never been a flawless, smooth and perfect speaker. But he's always spoken from the heart. What my colleagues needed to see was him engaging and fighting. And that's what they're seeing.

COLLINS: Tomorrow is his first solo press conference, since November.

When you look at the numbers, he's done 36 news conferences to date, since he's been in office. That's not as many as his predecessors had done. Trump had done 64, by this point. Obama, 72. Bush, 82. But he is going to be speaking tomorrow.

COONS: Yes.

COLLINS: How high do you think the stakes are for that press conference, tomorrow?

COONS: Look, I don't think we should set the stakes too high. I think we should be looking at how he's doing at the event today, with the AFL-CIO, speaking to obviously a supportive group, they endorsed him, but unscripted, no teleprompters. I hope he does well. I expect he'll do well, in the press conference, tomorrow.

He had a great campaign rally, in North Carolina, right after the debate. He gave a great speech, at the Mount Airy Church, in Philadelphia, last Sunday.

Like, he's not getting the recognition and credit for how well he is doing out on the stump, how much he connects with people. And that's one of the things I think we also ought to be counting into it.

Let's also look at one other thing. Donald Trump may have given many more press conferences. But look at what he did. On that debate stage, just two weeks ago, he unleashed a torrent of lies and invectives. CNN probably fact-checked and said at least 30 big lies, three in one sentence, at one point. So, thank you.

But bluntly, in a lot of those press conferences, and in a lot of his campaign rallies now, he is saying bizarre and incoherent things.

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I talked to a head of state, from a European country, last night, who said how is it possible that former President Trump is rambling on about electrocution by sharks and exploding pine trees and -- you know this. At rallies and public events. And no one's asking about it.

And people seem only concerned about the current president.

We've got two candidates. When Donald Trump was President, we had four bad years. Joe Biden had one bad debate night. But he's had three-and- a-half great years of accomplishing good things for our country.

COLLINS: Senator Chris Coons, thank you for your time tonight.

COONS: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Great to have you.

And joining me here at the table:

Congressman Ro Khanna, the Deputy Whip of the Progressive Caucus.

Veteran Democratic strategist, Simon Rosenberg.

And the former Republican National Committee communications director, Doug Heye.

It's great to have you all here.

Congressman, though, let me start with you.

Obviously, Senator Coons is one of the most ardent allies of President Biden's on Capitol Hill. He is very optimistic, about him staying in this race. It's not always what you're hearing behind-the-scenes.

What did you make of his expectation setting, for the press conference, tomorrow?

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Well, Kaitlan, I think he is saying that President Biden is in this race. Obviously, he doesn't want the President to be judged, on any single sentence, or any single appearance.

But I saw Senator Bennet, last night, who I have tremendous respect for. But I reject his fatalism about politics. I mean, he was saying there's no chance.

Look, people told me, an Indian-American Hindu, no chance of ever getting elected. When I started out in the polls, I was at 3 percent. The incumbent was at 65 percent. You know what I did? I worked my heart out.

It's no secret that President Biden is an underdog. It's no secret that he's down 3 or 4 percent. But we shouldn't dwell on that. What we should do is work our heart out, to drag him across the finish line.

COLLINS: But is it going to take dragging him, across the finish line?

KHANNA: It's going to take all of us.

And you know what we should be talking about? He has addressed the de- industrialized parts of this country. Three years, record job creation.

Trump ran his whole campaign, in 2016, saying you've ignored Forgotten America. You shipped manufacturing out to China. You forgotten these Americans.

Joe Biden has turned around rural America, de-industrialized America, and he has delivered on what Donald Trump never did. That's what we need to be passionate about.

COLLINS: The White House was feeling pretty good by Tuesday. And then, obviously, what happened with Senator Bennet, that moment with Speaker Pelosi this morning. Now, tonight, Senator Welch is the first sitting senator to call on him to drop out.

SIMON ROSENBERG, VETERAN DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes.

COLLINS: I wonder what you make of how this week has gone, with trying to stem the defections, and the latest from a Senator, tonight.

ROSENBERG: We're having a debate in the Democratic Party. I mean, I'm with Joe Biden, 100 percent. He's been a great president. He's made the country far better off. But the Democratic Party, I think there's a lot of concern about his performance. And I think he's still got work to do, to assuage the concerns that people have.

I think the White House has been a little bit too dismissive, frankly, this week, of some of the concerns that people have. This is not just elites, and congressmen. These are voters, right that -- and you look at the polling. There are a lot of Democrats who are worried about his fitness for office now.

So, I think he's going to have to work very, very hard to bring everybody back together, to put the team back together, so that we can go out and win this election. The election is very close. We've lost a couple points here and there. But I think that if we do the work, we can win this election.

He's got to do a lot more, I think, after the NATO summit, to address the Democratic Party and its leadership directly, to bring us all together, to get us to where we need to be.

COLLINS: Doug, I mean, what does that look like, when you are taking fire from your own party, and you're inside the White House? How you deal with that?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's the rockiest of rocky ground. And it's why the President and his team are struggling.

And what we've seen is with the press conferences that Karine is holding, she has to update her information. Because, I told you this yesterday, that wasn't true. Now, we have to give you new information. And that's causing problems.

But how many times, Kaitlan, did you have conversations on TV, during the Trump years, of Republicans say this in private about Donald Trump, and they say that in public?

COLLINS: Still happening.

HEYE: And we would have the Congressman, and his colleagues say, Republicans need to stand up and be honest, and they need to speak truth to power.

So, what are we seeing Democrats do this week? They're implying truth to power. They're saying, well, I'm sure he's going to make the right decision. They won't say what that decision is. Well, he's our candidate. And as long as he's our candidate. They don't want to say the obvious truth. They're very fearful of it.

I know Senator Welch pretty well. He's a man of principle. I respect what he did. He did the right thing, and the smart thing.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what the White House reaction to that is. We haven't seen anything yet.

Everyone, stood by, because we have a lot more to talk about, ahead of that critical press conference, for President Biden tomorrow.

We have new reporting, tonight, about the Biden campaign's efforts, to stop that George Clooney Op-Ed from going to the press. And of course, what that looks like.

Plus tonight, as I mentioned, Donald Trump's former attorney and fixer, Michael Cohen, is going to join us live, to talk about why he's going to the Supreme Court, to try to get them, to let him sue Donald Trump.

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COLLINS: New reporting, tonight, from The New York Times that talk about how the Biden campaign, and when it found out that George Clooney, that major donor to President Biden, was going to write an Op-Ed calling for him to drop out of the race, and how there was a full-court press by Biden's team to persuade him not to publish it. Of course, it did publish, this afternoon. So clearly, that did not succeed.

But this is notable here, not just because he has any power here in Washington, but he's a Hollywood heavyweight. He's been a longtime Democratic donor. And he went ahead with that Op-Ed even after he just co-hosted a $28 million fundraiser for President Biden, just days before that debate, in Atlanta.

Part of his reasoning here, as he says, the Joe Biden that "I was with three weeks ago" at that fundraiser "was not the Joe 'big F-ing deal' Biden of 2010. He wasn't even the Joe Biden of 2020. He was the same man" that "we all witnessed at the debate." Clooney warning, "We are not going to win in November with this president."

[21:20:00]

I'm back here with my panel.

And Congressman, obviously, I think it's easy for the White House to see that and say OK, well he's a Hollywood elite coming out against us. That's been something that the White House has been saying.

But when you look at what Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from New York is saying, tonight, he's a member of the Congressional Black Caucus as well. He said that Biden's candidacy is a political suicide mission.

And one thing that Bennet warned about last night, Senator Bennet, there's a lot of risk here, if the bet that Biden is the best nominee does not pay off for your party.

KHANNA: Well, first of all, no one should dismiss George Clooney. He's -- I'm a fan. He's an American icon. What he says matters. And he's been courageous on Gaza, and on human rights.

But here's what the White House needs to stop. They need to stop calling people, who are criticizing the President, or raising issues, bed wetters, or elites, and they need to recognize that this is very complex.

We don't have an ideal choice. We have a president who has aged. We have a president, who is not the same as he was in 2020. We have a president, who isn't as articulate. Let's not deny reality. But we still have a president, who has good values, good judgment, and if we work very hard, can win.

And there is a debate whether he is the best person to defeat Donald Trump, or whether making a last-minute change, with four months, and people who are untested, is the best person. And Democrats should welcome that debate and respect that debate. And that's what's going to allow us to unify.

COLLINS: What are you hearing, though, from other Democrats who say, well, maybe there is someone, who is a stronger option here? I mean, that is a conversation that's happening on Capitol Hill.

ROSENBERG: Yes. Look, I think the Democratic Party -- I think that where the White House has to be careful, is that I think there are tens of millions of Democrats, who have significant concerns, right now. This isn't a few elite in Washington, or George Clooney. You look at the polling. I mean, there's a large number of people, in the Democratic Party, who have concerns. And I think that the President has to be speaking to them, not just to the members of Congress.

I mean, Jim Himes said that one of the reasons that he's been expressing so much concern is that he's hearing it from his own constituents, right? These are people coming up to them.

So, I think this is a bigger issue than elites. I think there is -- Democrats want to win. And they need to hear more and see more from Joe Biden, to show that he's got the fire.

I think Chris Coons is correct. He's been working his butt off since the debate. Look at what Joe Biden's been doing. He's been going into the battlegrounds, leading the NATO summit.

Donald Trump disappeared for 12 days.

I mean, if there was a test of vigor, we just saw one guy working his butt off, and another guy disappearing after his crappy debate that he had a few weeks ago.

So, I think that there's -- we've got work to do. But what's critical for Democrats is wherever we are, in a week or 10 days, we got to come together, and unify, and bring the party together, and go out and win this election, which I think we can do.

COLLINS: You know, Doug, I've heard from a lot of people, inside the White House, and Democrats, who say, OK, well, no one is highlighting what Trump says at his rallies, where he goes off about electric vehicles, or boats sinking, because they're too heavy. And they say, why does that not get the same level of attention, from Republicans, who aren't critical of Trump?

But Trump polls really well with their -- with their party, with their base. And if Biden was polling a lot better, they -- the calls probably would not be coming from inside the house.

HEYE: Yes. Well, look, and we've spent several years covering a lot of the crazy, crazy things that Donald Trump has said. And, as a Republican, I'll admit, they're crazy.

And I'll tell my Democratic friends. I was the first Republican to say I'd never support Donald Trump. And that cost me jobs and contracts, and a lot of things like that. All worth it. Thank you. All worth it. No regrets. Democrats, the water's warm, if you want to do it.

But one thing that's interesting to me about the George Clooney thing is, as a Republican, it's very easy to dismiss it, Hollywood, big- shot, whatever.

But when I was leaving the house, earlier today, I saw Harvey Levin of TMZ talking on local Fox News here. That means it's going to be the headline of TMZ, tomorrow. That means if you're a young voter, it's going to be on your phone, on every app. It's not just the stayed Washington political conversation that we're used to, or a New York Times conversation. This is now a global and a mobile conversation. And that's the impact that Clooney has, and that Harvey Levin obviously is pushing.

COLLINS: Well, and he's also someone, who saw President Biden firsthand. I mean, he's not just -- even if he's not George Clooney, even if he was George Clooney's backup, I mean, he saw him at the fundraiser. And that's what his basis was.

Biden's campaign aides are coming up to the Hill, tomorrow, to speak to the Senate, and to talk about why they should pursue this case, and continue to go forward.

Do you think that's something President Biden himself should be doing, tomorrow?

KHANNA: Yes. I mean, maybe if not tomorrow, next week, I mean, after NATO. But I think the President would do himself a lot of favors, coming to the Hill. The times I've seen the President come to the Hill, he's been extraordinary. He still has a human touch.

And I think, honesty, from the President. With the George Stephanopoulos interview, the part that I thought was the most problematic was when George Stephanopoulos said, are you the same person as 2020? And I think the President could just say, no, I'm not. And I think people would get that.

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But he can say, you know what I know? I know I can still do this job. I know I have the right values. I know I can do this job better than Donald Trump. And a lot of people have aged, a lot of people have this, they're going to be pushed out of their jobs, where they know they can still do it. Am I the same person? No. But there are other things I have that I didn't have, four years ago.

But I think we need total vulnerability, authenticity from the President. And then, he can make this case.

COLLINS: Should he say that at the press conference, tomorrow?

KHANNA: I think he should -- he should be honestly introspective about who he is, and why he's in disgrace. He's not doing this for him, or Jill Biden. He is 81-years-old. He could retire.

He's doing this because he thinks he's the best person to save democracy. And it's a burden. And that's why he's doing it. And that's what needs to come out. That's that -- that why he's doing this, at his age, with clearly a capacity that isn't the same.

COLLINS: Congressman Ro Khanna. Doug Heye. Simon Rosenberg. Great to have you all. Really thoughtful discussion.

ROSENBERG: Thank you. COLLINS: Thank you for that.

And coming up here. Michael Cohen is trying to take a case, a fight against Donald Trump, all the way to the Supreme Court. It's still a major question, tonight, if the High Court is going to take that up.

Michael Cohen will join us though, in a few moments, to talk about his basis.

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[21:30:43]

COLLINS: Tonight, Michael Cohen is asking the Supreme Court, to revive his lawsuit against former President Donald Trump.

The former attorney and fixer asking the High Court to let him sue his one-time boss, for allegedly retaliating against him, as he promoted his tell-all book that told a lot about his former -- the former boss and the former President. It was critical of him.

I want to get straight to THE SOURCE, tonight, with Michael Cohen, who's joining me tonight, alongside his attorney, Jon-Michael Dougherty.

It's great to have you both here.

Michael Cohen, of course is the host of the "Mea Culpa" podcast, and the "Political Beatdown" podcast, and also the Author of the book, "Revenge."

So Michael, just you and I know this. But to get people up to speed, you sued Trump, you sued the former Attorney General, Bill Barr and other federal officials in 2021. Your lawsuit was for damages. And it was dismissed and upheld by an appeals court.

But obviously, you're hopeful that this is going to clear a hurdle for the Supreme Court, to get in front of them.

As you know, Michael, it's difficult for Americans to sue federal law enforcement officials. So I just I'm curious, tell me why you think and why you're hopeful this one will succeed.

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Well, in what world is it acceptable that a citizen should be unconstitutionally remanded, and that you cannot sue the government for unconstitutionally violating your rights? It just doesn't -- it makes absolutely no sense.

On top of that, the thing that all of the viewers today have to be very, very careful, and they have to be very cognizant of, is what happens now, post the Supreme Court's decision, on presidential immunity.

Kaitlan, what's to stop the president, or God forbid, a million times, Donald Trump, if he wins the White House, again, from turning around and saying, you know, I didn't like, Kaitlan, what you said. And sends SEAL Team Six, to your home. They ended up knocking down your door, bagging, tagging you, and sending you off, as he says, to Guantanamo Bay? And you don't even have the right now to defend yourself?

All I'm asking for by the Supreme Court, give me my day in court, and let the documents speak for themselves.

COLLINS: Yes, and Michael, obviously, you know, we just dealt with an entire trial, where you were there. You testified. You were in that situation. This is obviously very different, because you are going to the Supreme Court.

But I do wonder, given the makeup of the Supreme Court, given the way we've seen them ruling, on certain decision, the trend line has kind of been against this, this ability to be able to sue federal officials. I think we've only had really two instances since the 70s, where they've been successful.

So, I wonder, realistically, how you are viewing this, and what precedent you think it sets if you're -- if you're not successful here.

COHEN: So, this is a first-in-time-precedented case. We've never had a citizen of the United States incarcerated, because they refused to waive their First Amendment constitutional right.

I mean, this -- I am the first, in essence, political prisoner, held by my own country, again, because I refused to waive a constitutional right. And I believe that it's incumbent upon the Supreme Court of the United States to hear this case, and to remand it back down.

You see, the interesting thing, Judge Liman called this case, profoundly violent, in terms of the fact that he had to deny the case and to grant the summary judgment motion.

In fact, even the Second Circuit Court of Appeals turned around, and they could not understand what is the precedence to prevent a government official, in this case, specifically, a president, or a willing and complicit Attorney General, from ever doing it again? And the answer is they didn't have one.

And the only way that we could ever know, because the rule here, as put down by Justice Thomas, by Justice Clarence Thomas, is, unless it is of the most unusual circ*mstance.

And so I posit to you and again, to your listeners, what could be more unusual, than the President of the United States, weaponizing the Justice Department, to go against a political opponent, or a critic, and incarcerating them, because they refuse to waive a First Amendment constitutional right?

COLLINS: Yes.

COHEN: I can't think of one.

[21:35:00]

COLLINS: And Jon-Michael, you're the attorney here, representing Michael Cohen, in this.

We've had Bill Barr sitting in that seat, for a few interviews, on this show.

When it comes to, if you're -- if the court does take it in, you're -- they're asking for evidence, tying Attorney General Bill Barr to it. Obviously, Michael Cohen says that he believes he was a part of this, because he was the sitting Attorney General. What do you -- how do you tie that to him? How -- what does that look like in court?

JON-MICHAEL DOUGHERTY, COUNSEL FOR MICHAEL COHEN: Right. So, Kaitlan, it's important to understand the stage of the litigation.

And thank you for covering this story, by the way, because we really do believe that this is an incredibly important moment, in American history. This story, it's an unprecedented situation.

Judge Alvin Hellerstein found that Michael Cohen was incarcerated in retaliation for his refusal to be silent.

COLLINS: It was a really remarkable rule -- retribution, coming from that judge.

DOUGHERTY: Judge Hellerstein said he has seen nothing like this in his decades on the bench.

When Michael Cohen brought the instant lawsuit that's sort of underlying our appeal now, Judge Liman dismissed the case, because of this incredibly narrow path that the Supreme Court has left open, to sue federal officials in their personal capacity. But in dismissing the case, he said he was disturbed by the profound violence, his dismissal does to Michael Cohen's rights.

So, what we have asked the Supreme Court to do is to apply its precedence, take that narrow path that it has said remains, in the most unusual circ*mstances, where there is a clear need for a deterrent remedy. And this is what Michael's referring to.

COLLINS: Yes.

DOUGHERTY: When he's saying what could be more unusual? And what could be more in need of deterrence, in a free society, governed by a government with limited powers than the act of federal officials, incarcerating public officials -- or public critics, for their refusal to be silent.

COLLINS: We will see how this goes. It's great to hear you, both of you and your view of this. We'll see what the Supreme Court decides, of course.

Jon-Michael Dougherty, great to have you. Michael Cohen, as well. Thank you both for joining tonight, to talk about this case. And we'll follow it very closely.

COHEN: Thank you.

DOUGHERTY: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next here. This is notable, as new CNN reporting, fake electors for Donald Trump in 2020, are now several states are sending them to Milwaukee, next week, for the Republican National Convention. They're going to be participating in the official process, to nominate Donald Trump. We'll tell you more, right after this.

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[21:42:00]

COLLINS: When the Republican National Committee kicks off, next Monday, in Milwaukee, where the GOP will formally make Donald Trump its nominee, there will be some notable and maybe notorious names, who are present. Notorious, given they are election deniers there, representing their state parties.

CNN has learned, tonight, that seven battleground states are going to be sending fake electors, and other election deniers, to represent them in Milwaukee. Some of them have even been criminally charged for helping Trump, to try to overturn the 2020 election. Yet in their roles as National Committee members, delegates, or alternates, they'll have the distinct honor of making him the party's next nominee, officially.

Joining me, here tonight, for the first time on THE SOURCE, Republican governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, who I should note just won a primary opponent -- just won a primary against an opponent, who supported false claims about the 2020 election fraud. That happened just a few days ago.

As so, Governor, it's great to have you here.

And I just wonder, given the lens of that, the election that you just had, how you feel when you see that people, who are fake electors, including people under criminal indictment, are going to be representing states at your party's convention?

GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): Sure. Well, obviously it's not the best look, Kaitlan. But I'm very hopeful that at the National Convention, the Republicans will have an opportunity to turn the page on that stuff, and present a hopeful message to the country.

I think that the country is desperate for some normalcy, right now. And neither party has been giving them that normalcy. And I'm hopeful that we can -- we can provide some of that normalcy, and show a brighter vision for what we can be, as a party, and what we can be as a country.

COLLINS: Yes, well, but given that. You say you're hopeful. One thing, it kind of seems like this playbook that is becoming more common. I mean, it's happening in your -- in your race. Your opponent, you defeated him by about 40,000 points. But he's yet to concede, reportedly considering his legal options.

And I wonder if you're worried that election denialism is becoming the playbook, that it's becoming part of the party's platform?

COX: Well, I do worry about it.

And, to be fair, we saw it in Utah, the first time in 2016, actually, when I was the Lieutenant Governor, also acting as Secretary of State, and they had to certify an election that Donald Trump won. And we had Hillary Clinton supporters, who showed up and tried to get us to change the vote of those electors, who were bound.

And then, of course, it got worse in 2020 with my party.

And so, I do worry that this is happening with the fringes of the party, and now more of the mainstream of the party.

And I'm just a big believer that we should -- we should actually be trying to win elections, the right way, and trying to convince people that we have the message that matters. This election would not be close, if we're able to present that positive message. It might not be close anyway, if Joe Biden is the -- is the nominee. And so, I'm, again, I'm optimistic as we head into this election.

COLLINS: Well, and obviously, in 2016, it's really the top of the ticket that sends the message. Hillary Clinton conceded her loss, after she lost to Donald Trump.

[21:45:00]

Donald Trump obviously did not do so, in 2020.

And as we look ahead to 2024. You watched the CNN debate here. You watched the town hall we did with Donald Trump. I mean, he has been asked multiple times, about committing to the election results, if it's free and fair, regardless of what they are. And he always has a caveat.

And I wonder if that worries you about what November could look like?

COX: Well, again, I think the caveat is, is if it is free and fair, and I think that's a -- that's a fair caveat to have. But we know, because we had lots of -- we had lots of litigation, lots of debate, we were able to go through all those processes, to find out that the last election was free and fair.

And so, again, I'm hopeful that this time, Republicans will win, that it won't be particularly close. But if we don't, and if it is close, I hope -- again, I just hope we'll do it the right way. That's how you win in the long-term.

I think both parties have done a really good job of turning off the electorate. And there's a market failure happening, right now, in both parties. And I believe that our party does have the answers that normal people are looking for. But we have to make that case. And we have to make that case all the way to November.

COLLINS: Are you supporting the top of your ticket in November? Are you supporting Donald Trump? COX: Yes. So, I've said before, I have -- I haven't voted for the top of the ticket, since 2012. I've certainly had my concerns. One of those is what happened on January 6th.

I'm hopeful. I want my party to win. They chose a candidate this time around that was not my first choice. Wasn't my choice last time either. But the party's spoken. And that's who they have chosen.

And so, I've said I'm not going to vote for either presidential candidate this year. I'll write somebody in, as I've done in the past. But I am supportive. I do want Donald Trump to succeed. I want my party to win. We desperately need that, the right people in the right positions.

I'm very anxious for who he picks as Vice President. That's going to make a big difference, I think, certainly for me. I believe in governors. I think Governor Burgum is an incredible leader. I think he's somebody, who could actually help to unite the party, and lead us into November with President Trump. And that's something we'll be watching very closely.

COLLINS: Yes.

COX: If an announcement comes soon, I guess, potentially on Monday.

COLLINS: Any moment now, it could come. And I think Governor Burgum knows that too, as much as the other candidates.

Governor, you are the Chair of the National Governors Association. You're meeting this week in your home state with everyone. And you have pushed this initiative about disagreeing better. Disagree better.

At a dinner that you were here in Washington, we were both at, earlier this year, you had this quote that stood out. And you were joking at the beginning of your remarks. You were quite serious at the end. And you said, quote, "In a world full of arsonists, we desperately need some architects."

Tell me what you mean by that?

COX: Well, look, I believe it's become kind of in vogue in our politics. If you look at Congress, the people that are getting elected on the fringes, who aren't running to build anything, or solve any problems whatsoever, they're running on platforms, they're running to get attention. And they're very good at burning things down, tearing things down. But they're not good at building.

And our nation was founded by people, who disagreed passionately, but found ways to work together. Yuval Levin, the author, he says often that unity is not all being the same, or believing the same things. But unity is acting together. And we desperately need to elect people, who will do that. Now, again, we haven't seen that. We haven't seen that in a long time.

But I truly believe that there are good people out there. And they're mostly governors. I love our governors, right now, on both the right and the left. There are some real builders, out there, who are trying to solve problems.

And the whole idea behind disagree better is that we can't solve problems if we all hate each other. And so, can we find ways, even in disagreement, where we passionately disagree, healthy conflict, where we can come together, to try to solve problems together.

COLLINS: Governor Spencer Cox, I think there's a lot of people looking for that right now. Thank you for joining us tonight.

COX: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And ahead here, on CNN, Rudy Giuliani may be one step closer to having his properties seized. We're going to bring you all the drama that happened, even during a virtual hearing in bankruptcy court today.

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[21:54:21]

COLLINS: Rudy Giuliani may be on the verge of losing both his homes to the two Georgia election workers that he defamed.

At the former Mayor's bankruptcy hearing, in New York, today, the judge signaled that he may be ready to throw out the case, meaning that Giuliani could lose control over all of his assets, and those two election workers that we've all come to know so well, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, would then be allowed to try to seize his properties.

We're expecting the judge to decide Giuliani's fate, this Friday.

The hearing today was incredibly testy. The judge, at one point, even threatened to mute Giuliani's microphone, saying and I'm quoting the judge now, "I'm going to ask you to listen to me, and if you don't, I'm going to have to cut you off."

Joining me here, tonight, to discuss, CNN Legal Analyst, and the former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.

Elliot, it's great to have you here.

[21:55:00]

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

COLLINS: Wow.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COLLINS: We kind of knew this was going to be huge. Katelyn Polantz has been all over this. But what are the possible outcomes here?

WILLIAMS: In all likelihood, it looks like the bankruptcy proceeding gets dismissed, because just about everybody wants it.

The judge has made clear that he's ready to go that direction. Rudy Giuliani seems open to the possibility.

And Shay Freeman (ph) and Ruby Moss (ph) also seem to want the bankruptcy proceeding to be dismissed.

Now, they all have something to gain from that happening. But I think that's where it goes.

COLLINS: But so what does that look for Rudy Giuliani, if that is what the judge decides, on Friday?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COLLINS: When it comes to, does that mean Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, their attorney -- they immediately have control over this potentially? What does that look like?

WILLIAMS: Not immediately. So, Rudy Giuliani would get a chance to appeal the bankruptcy, which is what he wants. He would get to take it up to an appeals court.

They, on the other hand, think they can fight it, they -- Ruby and Shaye, they would also be able to start going after his assets. Now, again, if he's appealing it, and the thing is still in the courts, would probably take a little more time. But they can start going after that money. Now, are they going to get $143 million? Highly unlikely. But they could start going after his real estate.

COLLINS: Yes, because so far, they haven't gotten a dime from Rudy Giuliani.

WILLIAMS: No.

COLLINS: What do you make of his -- how he handled the hearing today?

WILLIAMS: You got -- when you're in court for any purpose, Kaitlan, you got two jobs. Number one, respect the judge and the court. Number two, get your papers and your documents in on time. And he did neither of those things.

He was late. He wasn't candid about what his assets are. There are still these open questions about how much money he has, but also seem to be rude to the judge, and cutting him off and cutting other people off. It just -- it's just bad behavior in court, and it's just an unforced error. You don't do that.

COLLINS: So it's not helpful?

WILLIAMS: It's not helpful.

COLLINS: Elliot Williams, we'll see what the judge decides on Friday.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

COLLINS: Thank you for breaking all that down for us. We'll see what it means for Rudy Giuliani. Before we go tonight, I do want to take a moment though, to say thank you to all of you. Tonight marks one year, and one-year anniversary of THE SOURCE here at CNN.

And in this last year, this role has taken me all over the globe, from Israel, as the world was still reeling from the terror of the October 7th attack, to Ukraine on the second anniversary of Russia's invasion.

It's also taken me all over our country, right here at home, whether that's to Florida, to bring you an exclusive interview, with a key witness, in Donald Trump's classified documents case; or in Georgia, where we covered that historic moment, when we saw the first mug shot of a former President; even when the former President was convicted for the first time, in his home state of New York, not too long ago.

The guests on this show have brought you inside perspective that really no one else can.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: He just leaves all this carnage, in his wake.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Trump's election to a second term would mean constitutional crisis on a daily basis.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, honestly, Kaitlan, I -- I had frankly hoped all -- all the way up to the waning days, before January 6, that President Trump would come around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You see a key number of voices there. I should note. Our goal with each interview has always been the same. Challenging people, who are in power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): --believe in different things.

COLLINS: A White nationalist is racist, Senator.

TUBERVILLE: Well, that's your opinion.

COLLINS: Would you be OK with the Saudis, enriching uranium?

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I think that there are major issues there.

COLLINS: Why hasn't your party been able to deliver on repealing that?

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Well, it was a part of our initial package that we tried to get done, last year.

COLLINS: Do you trust Speaker Johnson?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: I have to trust. I have to trust. But we'll see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And I should note, then, in all of these interviews, we've also tested those, who are seeking more power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You agree that people who break in and vandalize a building should be prosecuted?

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH): Exactly.

COLLINS: OK. I'm just checking, because you did help raise money for people who did so on January 6th.

If you were president today, how would you hold Putin accountable for Navalny's death?

NIKKI HALEY, FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: One, you just call it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: We've also told the stories, and this is important here, of course, of those whose lives had been changed by that power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATE COX, FLED TEXAS FOR EMERGENCY ABORTION AFTER BEING DENIED ONE: I live in a state, where I know my doctors are fearful. I trust my doctors. But the State of Texas doesn't trust doctors.

HADLEY DUVALL, OWENSBORO, KY: I think, putting my face out there, with the words, not just like making it something that you just hear about, like I'm a real person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Over the last year, whether you were hearing from elected officials, or people like Kate Cox and Hadley Duvall there, it has never been lost on me, or my incredibly hardworking team, here at THE SOURCE, and they are incredibly hardworking, that the reason we keep asking these questions, no matter how many times, we have to ask, is because of you, our viewers at home.

[22:00:00]

And that is why every show, after every interview and segment, we end it by saying thank you, for joining us. Every night, we really do mean it.

Thank you again for joining us. Thank you for joining us for the last year. We hope you'll continue to join us, going forward.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.