KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: pressure campaign. Just four months to Election Day, a defiant President Biden vows he’s staying in the race.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I am running and going to win again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But as his poll numbers plummet, and Democrats consider Vice President Harris at the top of the ticket, pressure is building for him to drop out.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
I think it’s a legitimate question to say, “Is this an episode, or is this a condition?”
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
He has to show that he can do the job. He does not have a lot of time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can the 81-year-old president reassure his party he’s still fit to serve?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I have a cognitive test every single day. Every day I’ve got tests. Everything I do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California. Plus: power surge. The Supreme Court rules that former presidents have immunity for all “official acts,” delaying Donald Trump’s election interference case and postponing his sentencing in the New York hush money case.
DONALD TRUMP:
If you don’t have immunity, you just have a ceremonial president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What will it mean for a potential second Trump term?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I know I will respect the limits of the president's powers, I have for three and a half years, but any president, including Donald Trump, will now be free to ignore the law.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Republican Senator JD Vance of Ohio, a potential Trump running mate. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News White House Correspondent Mike Memoli; Amy Walter, editor-in-chief of the Cook Political Report; former Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy; and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President Biden is in an all-out effort to revive his candidacy after that debate performance last week that raised questions about whether he’s capable of beating Donald Trump and serving another four years in office. One veteran House Democrat tells NBC News, “Opinions are hardening in many quarters that action has to be taken and that action is a different nominee.” Both House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries and Virginia Senator Mark Warner are convening groups of their colleagues to discuss the path forward. And a growing number of congressional Democrats have called on President Biden to step aside.
[START TAPE]
REP. LLOYD DOGGETT:
Mr. President, please look at what's happened, recognize that the reality out there may not be the same thing you're hearing from the circle of your closest friends and family and consider putting our country first.
REP. SCOTT PETERS:
The campaign has been very, I think, arrogant in their response. We want to know what their plan is to win this election and turn these numbers around. If they don’t have a plan, then I think we have to move in a different direction.
REP. MIKE QUIGLEY:
It's like talking to a loved one about such a tough situation. How do you tell that person, you can't do this anymore?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The decision about whether Mr. Biden stays in the race may come down to the raw data. In a new Wall Street Journal poll, former President Trump has opened up a six-point lead over President Biden among registered voters – the widest gap in that survey since 2021. Mr. Trump leads by nine points among registered voters in a New York Times/Siena College poll. He's up by six points among likely voters, his largest lead since 2015. And Vice President Harris performs slightly better than President Biden in a CNN poll, within the margin of error. But a Bloomberg/Morning Consult poll shows a close race in key battleground states. Now, an increasing number of big Democratic donors are calling on President Biden to drop out.
[START TAPE]
ARI EMANUEL:
The lifeblood to a campaign in politics – the lifeblood is money. I talked to a bunch of big donors, and they’re moving all their money to Congress and the Senate. I mean, I cannot believe we're in this situation.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
But the president has been defiant he is not dropping out. On the trail in Wisconsin and in an exclusive interview with ABC’s George Stephanopolous, President Biden insisted only “the Lord Almighty” could make him change his mind.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If the Lord Almighty came down and said, "Joe, get out of the race," I'd get out of the race. The Lord Almighty's not coming down.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS:
I agree that the Lord Almighty's not going to come down, but if – if you are told reliably from your allies, from your friends and supporters in the Democratic Party in the House and the Senate that they're concerned you're going to lose the House and the Senate if you stay in, what will you do?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm not going to answer that question. It's not going to happen.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
But the interview did not calm the widespread panic throughout the party. Former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod said President Biden is “rightfully proud of his record,” but is, quote, “dangerously out-of-touch with the concerns people have about his capacities.” Some Democrats have also expressed frustration that the president refused to commit to taking a cognitive test.
[START TAPE]
GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS:
Have you had the specific cognitive tests, and have you had a neurologist, a specialist, do an examination?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
No. No one said I had to. No one said – they said I'm good.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOLUS:
Would you be willing to undergo an independent medical evaluation that included neurological and cognitive tests and release the results to the American people?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Look, I have a cognitive test every single day. Every day, I have that test. Everything I do.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS:
So the answer – the answer right now is, no, you don't want to do that, right?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
No, I've already done it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Monday, the Supreme Court gave former President Donald Trump a monumental legal victory, granting him sweeping immunity from prosecution over official actions, in an extraordinary expansion of executive power. Aiming to capitalize on that, the Biden campaign is now arguing the decision is added proof that Mr. Trump will be more dangerous in a second term.
[START TAPE]
GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS:
If you stay in and Trump is elected, and everything you're warning about comes to pass, How will you feel in January?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I’ll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the good as job as I know I can do, that’s what this is about.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California, a candidate for Senate. Congressman Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Great to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is great to have you here. I want to get your gut reaction to that interview on Friday night, obviously the president turning to turn the page. Based on what you saw, do you think he is still the strongest candidate to beat Former President Trump?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, ultimately, this is a decision President Biden is going to have to make and President Biden alone. But I would say this. He has been an extraordinary president. He has created millions and millions of jobs. He has expanded and strengthened our NATO alliances. He has brought back manufacturing in this country. He has brought about the most aggressive attack on climate change. He has done more in one term than most presidents ever do, no matter how many terms they get. And he's running against someone who's a pathological liar, someone who ran the country into the ground by his mishandling of a deadly pandemic, someone who is a pathological – not only a pathological liar, but is immoral, indecent, and unfit for office. But the performance on the debate stage, I think, rightfully raised questions among the American people about whether the president has the vigor to defeat Donald Trump. And this is an existential race. Given Joe Biden's incredible record, given Donald Trump's terrible record, he should be mopping the floor with Donald Trump. Joe Biden's running against a criminal. It should not be even close. And there's only one reason it is close, and that's the president's age. And what I would say, Kristen, what I would advise the president, is seek out the opinions of people you trust. He's obviously talked to his family about this. And that's important. But he should seek out people with some distance and objectivity. He should seek out pollsters who are not his own pollsters. He should take a moment to make the best informed judgment. And if the judgment is run, then run hard and beat that S.O.B.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, what is your opinion? I mean, you watched that interview on Friday night. And a lot of Democrats say, “It was fine. He certainly seemed stronger, more robust than during the debate.” But it didn't put concerns to rest. Are you confident he can beat Donald Trump, or do you think he should drop out of the race?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
The interview didn't put concerns to rest. No single interview is going to do that. And what I do think the president needs to decide is: can he put those concerns aside? Can he demonstrate to the American people that what happened on the debate stage was an aberration, that he can and will beat Donald Trump. Given the Supreme Court decision now essentially making any future Trump dictator and a king, it's all the more important. But here's the thing: I think if the president takes the time to consult people and has an open mind about this, he will do what Joe Biden always does, which is he will make the right decision. He’ll make the decision in the best interest of the country. That's what he has always done. And I'm confident that's what he will do here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You heard Nancy Pelosi say that it's legitimate to ask was this an episode or a condition. President Biden refused to commit to take a cognitive test. Do you think he should take a cognitive test?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Look, I'd be happy if both the president and Donald Trump took cognitive tests.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So that's a, "Yes," you think he should take a cognitive test?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
I think they both should be willing to take a test. I think, frankly, a test would show Donald Trump has serious illness of one kind or another. But, ultimately, the decision is going to come down to what Joe Biden thinks is best. And if his decision is to run, then run hard and beat that S.O.B. And if his decision is to pass the torch, then the president should do everything in his power to make that other candidate successful.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And let me ask you about next steps. Because, obviously, there are going to be meetings on Capitol Hill; Leader Jeffries, Mark Warner concerned about down-ballot races. Are Democrats in trouble with Joe Biden at the top of the ticket?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Look, there are concerns with the impact on down-ballot races, if the president doesn't do well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is he dragging down down-ballot races, as we speak?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
You know, at present, our down-ballot candidates in the Senate and House are doing well. They're all ahead. They are running well ahead of the president. But you can only run so far ahead of the president. And so, obviously, Joe Biden is going to need to consider, for his own sake and his own legacy, can he beat Donald Trump? Is he the best to beat Donald Trump? But also the profound impact this decision – maybe, the most important his presidency – will have on the House, on the Senate, on the future of the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, Congressman, when I talk to Democrats, one of the exchanges that frustrated them most from that interview on Friday was when he was asked, "What happens if you lose?" President Biden said it's about whether he gave it his all. Is that what it's about? Is that answer satisfying, to you?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
No. That is the answer that most concerned me, as well. This is not just about whether he gave it the best college try, but rather whether he made the right decision to run or to pass the torch. That is the most important decision for him to make right now. This is about whether this country remains a democracy, whether we veer off into some kind of pseudo-dictatorship. Everything is riding on this. And I know people feel an urgency. I feel an urgency. But I would tell the president, "Slow down and take the time to make the right decision here that's best for the country." And I believe he will.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You laid out the stakes, right before the debate. You noted that the country is divided. This will be a close election, as it was back in 2020. I want to play a little bit of what you said.
[START TAPE]
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
You can't discount the chance that, if he loses again, when he loses again, that he will go to even greater lengths to try to overturn the results. The only remedy, really, is the one in all of our hands. And that is to make sure that Joe Biden wins overwhelmingly, that this is not close.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, "Overwhelmingly." Can President Biden win overwhelmingly, by any stretch, at this point?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Either he has to win overwhelmingly, or he has to pass the torch to someone who can. It's as simple as that. Because what the Supreme Court did in that decision was give the next occupant of that office, whether it's Joe Biden or anyone else, nearly dictatorial power.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about that, coming up. But let me, very quickly, ask you about the vice president. You saw the poll. And one poll shows her doing better against Former President Trump. Do you think she's a stronger candidate to take on Donald Trump?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
I think the vice president would be a phenomenal president. I think she has the experience, the judgment, the leadership ability to be an extraordinary president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Could she win overwhelmingly, Congressman?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
I think she very well could win overwhelmingly. But before we get into a decision about who else it should be, the president needs to make a decision whether it's him. I don't want to get into a debate. I don't think it's good for the party to get into a debate over, "Okay. If not him, then whom?" But rather: "Let's focus on the fundamental decision."
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to get to immunity. How quickly does he have to make this decision, though? the next week, the next ten days?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
It needs to be made promptly. But, frankly, more important than speed is getting it right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the immunity decision. In the past, Mr. Trump has accused you, personally, of fraud and treason. He's called for members of the January 6th committee to be indicted, as you know. Are you personally concerned about the former president's threats against you, should he be reelected?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Of course. I think anyone who's on his enemies list should be concerned because--
KRISTEN WELKER:
What scares you most? What concerns you most?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, what concerns me the most is what the court just did, was to basically tell Donald Trump, "You can do anything, through the Justice Department. You can do anything, through the military. These are core responsibilities of the president of the United States. You will have unquestioned immunity for whatever you do. And even outside of that, you will have such a strong presumption of immunity as to be irrebuttable." Donald Trump already had very few guardrails. All the people of stature, the Secretary Mattis and others, he drove out, replaced them with other sycophants. He would start with the other sycophants, and he would start with no guardrails whatsoever. He was talking about bringing Liz Cheney up before military tribunal. If there is anything that should show the American people that he is unfit to be president, it's statements like this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, given those high stakes, should President Biden drop out and pass the torch to Vice President Kamala Harris or someone else who you believe could win overwhelmingly?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
I think Joe Biden should take the time, talk to people outside of his immediate circle, talk to people he respects, people of objectivity, people of distance, and make the right decision for the country. And I'm confident Joe Biden has always made a decision in the best interest of the country. It is the fundamental distinction between he and Donald Trump. Donald Trump you can always count on to do what's best for Donald Trump, but Joe Biden you can count on to do what's right for the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Good to have you here in studio. When we come back, Republican Senator JD Vance of Ohio, a potential Trump running mate, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. In a landmark decision this week, the Supreme Court ruled former presidents have immunity for their official acts, dealing a blow to the Special Counsel's 2020 election interference case. Chief Justice John Roberts writing for the majority, quote, "The president is not above the law. But under our system of separated powers, the president may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers." In a scathing dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote that the ruling effectively creates a law-free zone around the presidency, writing, "In every use of official power, the president is now a king above the law." Joining me now is Senator JD Vance, a top finalist to be former President Trump's running mate. Senator Vance, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Good morning. Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. I want to talk to you about the immunity ruling and the implications. This is what Donald Trump said last year about wanting to target his political opponents. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden, and the entire Biden crime family.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, if former President Trump were to win, if you were to be his vice president, would you support him appointing a special prosecutor to go after his political enemies, the Bidens?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, first of all, Kristen, I find it interesting how much the media and the Democrats have lost their mind over this particular quote. Donald Trump is talking about appointing a special prosecutor to investigate Joe Biden for wrongdoing. Joe Biden has done exactly that for the last few years and has done far more in addition to that to engage in a campaign of lawfare against his political opposition. I think what Donald Trump is simply saying is we ought to investigate the prior administration. There are obviously many instances of wrongdoing. The House Oversight Committee has identified a number of corrupt business transactions that may or may not be criminal. Of course you have to investigate to find out. So I think Donald Trump's saying, "look, let's do the basic work of investigating wrongdoing," is a totally reasonable thing for him to do. And frankly, the Biden administration has done far worse. So if you think that what Donald Trump is proposing is a threat to democracy, isn't what Biden has already done a massive threat to our system of law and government?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, just to be very clear, though, Joe Biden didn't appoint a special prosecutor. The Attorney General did that. Trump was indicted by grand juries. He was found guilty by a jury of his peers in New York. But can we just go back to the core question here? Would you support him taking such an action? It sounds like you're saying, yes, you would.
SEN. JD VANCE:
I would absolutely support investigating prior wrongdoing by our government, absolutely. That's what you have to have in a system of law and order, Kristen. But I have to reject the premise here. Joe Biden appointed the Attorney General, Merrick Garland, who of course answers to Joe Biden, can be fired by Joe Biden. So the idea that the Biden administration has nothing to do with the appointment of the special prosecutor, I think, completely betrays a misunderstanding of how our system of government actually works. And of course, Kristen, we have to make this point, Kristen, that the prosecution of Donald Trump in New York, which I think now has fundamentally been thrown in doubt by this immunity case, one of the main guys was a Department of Justice official in the Biden administration who jumped ship to join a local prosecutor's office to go after Donald Trump –
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, the DOJ told Congress --
SEN. JD VANCE:
– if that doesn't make you question the legitimacy of the prosecution, that's a problem.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Senator, that happens all the time. People are appointed from Washington. But the DOJ told Congress, testified this week --
SEN. JD VANCE:
It happened --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me finish --
SEN. JD VANCE:
Are you really saying, Kristen, it happens all the time?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me finish my sentence, then I'll let you finish. Hold on.
SEN. JD VANCE:
That the number three -- please. Go ahead, sorry.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me just finish this. The DOJ told Congress this week it reviewed all communication since Biden took office and found no contact between federal prosecutors and those involved with that case in New York. Can you stick to the substance of the question, though? Let me just ask, because you are – I just want to stick with this line of theory that you are laying out, which is you are saying it's not okay for Joe Biden to weaponize the Justice Department. If it's not okay for Joe Biden to weaponize the Justice Department, as you say, which there's no evidence of that, why is it okay for Donald Trump to do that?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, Kristen, first of all you said that it happens all the time, that the number three person in the Department of Justice jumped ship to join a local prosecutor's office to go after the president's political opponent? I don't think that's ever happened in the history of American democracy. And I don't think that we should legitimize it. Now, if Donald Trump's Attorney General had his number two or his number three jump ship to a local prosecutor's office in Ohio or Wisconsin and that person then went after Donald Trump's political opposition, that's a different conversation. All he's suggesting is that we should investigate credible arguments of wrongdoing. That's all that Donald Trump is saying. That is not a threat to democracy. That's merely reinforcing our system of law and government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Bottom line, you are okay with Donald Trump appointing a special prosecutor to go after his political enemies, which would include Joe Biden. Just to button that up, it sounds like you're saying yes. Let me move on, though, to my next question. I want to talk to you about the Heritage Foundation. It's a conservative think tank in Washington. It shapes the agenda they would like to see in a Trump second term. The president said this after the Supreme Court's ruling this week. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
KEVIN ROBERTS:
We're in the process of taking this country back. No one in the audience should be despairing. No one should be discouraged. We ought to be really encouraged by what happened yesterday. We are in the process of the second American revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you support those calls for a revolution, and would political violence ever be justified?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, of course political violence is never justified, Kristen. You'll have to ask the president of the Heritage Foundation to defend his remarks if you'd like to do that. I will say, look, the Heritage Foundation does a lot of good work. It does a lot of things that I disagree with, a lot of things that I agree with. But the Heritage Foundation is a nonprofit organization that works on public policy. And I think it's an important part of how D.C. functions and operates. We'll continue to have important conversations in the Republican Party with a whole host of think tanks from the right and from the left as we craft public policy. That's the way the city works. And again, I'm not going to be the person who serves as the spokesperson for the Heritage Foundation. I don't have any affiliation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sounds like you're distancing yourself from those comments, that talk of political violence.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Look, Kristen, I certainly don't think political violence is justified. That's certainly actually not what I think that Kevin Roberts is saying to begin with. But again, have him on your program to defend what he said, and I think that's the best thing to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you specifically about Project 2025. For our viewers so that they know, it's basically a policy blueprint for a second Trump presidency. It's supported by the Heritage Foundation and other conservative groups. The Biden campaign has said Project 2025, quote, "Should scare every single American. It would give Trump limitless power over our daily lives." Among the things they are calling for is reversing approval of the abortion pill mifepristone, but Donald Trump says he supports access to that pill actually. Do you support access to abortion medication as Donald Trump does?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, Kristen, you asked about Project 2025, and I want to be clear here that Trump explicitly has said his own transition team runs the Trump transition and will run the Trump administration. Again, you have a whole host of organizations, some of which have good ideas, some of which have bad ideas, and some of which have both. And I'm sure the Trump administration will talk to a lot of people as it's crafting an agenda to bring back American manufacturing jobs, to lower inflation, and to bring peace and prosperity back to the world. That's the whole reason why me and so many others are trying to reelect Donald Trump is because the agenda actually worked. It was his agenda, and I think it'll work again for the American people. On the question of the abortion pill, what so many of us have said is that, look, we certainly don’t – the Supreme Court made a decision saying that the American people should have access to that medication. Donald Trump has supported that opinion. I support that opinion. I think it's important to say that we actually have to have an important conversation in this country about what our abortion policy should be. Donald Trump is the pragmatic leader here. He's saying most abortion policy is going to be decided by the states. We want to make it easier and more affordable for young women and parents to have families to begin with. We want to lower housing costs, eliminate the surprise medical bills that so many families see after they have a baby. That's the Trump and Republican approach to this issue. Meanwhile, Joe Biden wants taxpayer-funded abortion up to the moment of birth. It's so crazy to me how the Democrats frame this as Republican –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, hold on. I have to hit the pause button for a second –
SEN. JD VANCE:
Just let me finish, Kristen. They frame Democrats as being reasonable and pragmatic, when in reality Republicans are the one trying to find some common ground here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, as you know, abortions – very few abortions take place later in pregnancy, and almost always because there is a medical emergency. I know Trump is trying to distance himself from Project 2025. But we have to point out that a number of people who are involved with it are former Trump officials: Ben Carson, Peter Navarro, Russ Vought and others. But just to be clear, you support mifepristone being accessible.
SEN. JD VANCE:
Yes, Kristen, I do. But again, on the Project 2025 issue, what the media and the Democrats are trying to do is attach its most unpopular elements to the Trump administration. It's a 900-page document. I guarantee there are things that Trump likes and dislikes about that 900-page document. But he is the person who will determine the agenda of the next administration. All he said very explicitly is, "I am in charge of the next administration because I'm the person running for president." It's just important to make that clarification.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you something that caught our eye. This is something you wrote in the New York Times op-ed in 2017 about former president Barack Obama. You criticized his policies, but you also said, quote, "It is one of the great failures of recent political history that the Republican Party was too often unable to disconnect legitimate political disagreements from the fact that the president himself is an admirable man. For at a pivotal time in my life Barack Obama gave me hope that a boy who grew up like me could still achieve the most important of my dreams. For that," you write, "I will miss him and the example he set." You wrote that just days before Donald Trump was inaugurated. Do you still consider Barack Obama to be an admirable man who you miss?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, you know I grew up in a broken family, Kristen, and I just wanted to be a good husband and dad. And certainly, Barack Obama, despite my many political disagreements with him, he's clearly a good husband and a father. By the way, I'd say the same thing about Donald Trump whose children love him. And I think this is one of the things the media often misses about Trump is how genuinely devoted he is to his family, to his grandchildren, and how part of his pro-life messaging, his fundamental pro-life view is that we ought to make it easier for more American families to have those thriving children and thriving families. So, certainly I think we've been blessed with a lot of good examples across our country. And yes, absolutely. Was Barack Obama a good president? No. Was he a good husband and father? Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So he's still an admirable man?
SEN. JD VANCE:
That's just what I said, Kristen, absolutely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. I have to ask you about veepstakes, of course. Have you gotten the call from Donald Trump? Has he asked you to be his running mate?
SEN. JD VANCE:
I have not gotten a call, Kristen. And I'll certainly -- you know, maybe not the first person that I'd let know if that happened, but we'll let the media know if I ever get that call. But most importantly, Kristen, we're just trying to work to elect Donald Trump. Whoever his vice president is, he's got a lot of good people he could choose from. It's the policies that worked and the leadership style that works for the American people. I think we have to bring that back to the White House, and I'm fighting to try to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, here we are about a week before the Republican Convention. Before I let you go, can you say unequivocally – unequivocally here and now – that you will accept the results of the 2024 election no matter what they are?
SEN. JD VANCE:
So long as it's a free and fair election, Kristen, of course we will. We will use constitutional processes to challenge issues if we think there are issues. But if it's a free and fair election, we will do what the Constitution requires. We will respect the results. And I expect those results are going to be to reelect Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It was a free and fair election in 2020. Donald Trump took his concerns to court. He lost in court. But he still has not conceded. Do you understand that when you refuse to commit unequivocally, that feeds into people's concerns, skepticism about the nation's electoral process?
SEN. JD VANCE:
Well, Kristen, I don't agree with that actually. I think that feeding into people's concerns about our electoral process is that one half of America's political segment, they won't support legislation that makes it harder for illegal aliens to vote. They won't support universal voter ID in our elections even though you have to present ID to do almost anything in this country. I think taking people's concerns seriously about election fraud is the way to reinforce security and confidence in our elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, Senator, it's already against the law for non-citizens to vote. But just on that very point, when you, when others refuse to say, "Yes, we will accept the election results," do you understand how that undermines people's confidence in the electoral system?
SEN. JD VANCE:
But, Kristen, what I just said is I don't agree with that. What I think actually undermines people's confidence in the electoral system is when the media is incurious about obvious examples of problems in our electoral system. I think we've got great elections, but a lot of things could be better in certain states. I want to work to make that happen so the American people have greater confidence in their elections. That's what I'll keep doing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, thank you for being here. Please come back when you get that phone call, if not beforehand. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. When we come back, President Biden is dismissing his critics and vowing to stay in the race even as more pressure grows for him to drop out. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News White House correspondent Mike Memoli, Amy Walter, editor-in-chief of The Cook Political Report, former Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida, and Matt Gorman, former senior communications advisor for Tim Scott for America. Thank you all for being here on what is ostensibly still a holiday weekend, but no holiday for us. Mike, I have to start with you. Take us inside Biden world, because you heard from Congressman Adam Schiff there's still a lot of skepticism about his ability to beat Trump. And he's really trying to turn the page and quiet the skeptics.
MIKE MEMOLI:
Kristen, I – I covered that rally in Wisconsin on Friday, as I did the week before in North Carolina. We all watched that interview with George Stephanopoulos. The tone being set by President Biden and others in his inner circle is one of defiance. They are almost challenging the Democratic party to take this nomination away from them. I shared with one senior advisor those newsmaking comments, I thought, from Congressman Schiff about the president, and they said, "This is not going to be decided by members of Congress. This is going to be decided by the voters." They really are framing this, and we're going to hear a lot more in the week ahead about the voters versus the pundits, voters versus the media, voters versus the establishment. This is Joe Biden, 50-year politician, establishment of the Democratic party if there ever was one, who is now running as an insurgent against his party. The one dose of reality that I've gotten is he's 100% in until he's 100% out. He has to be defiant until the moment he's ready to step aside.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's such a great way to frame it, Mike, because he has been such a part of the Democratic establishment for so long. Amy Walter, take us inside the numbers. Give us the reality check. Because just to remind folks, at the top of the show I laid out the fact that there has been erosion in the polling. And yet, there is one poll that shows the battlegrounds are still close. Where are we right now in this race?
AMY WALTER:
Well Kristen, you know I love me some polls.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I know you do.
AMY WALTER:
And I love digging into data. But I want to step away from it –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
AMY WALTER:
– because I think we – we really have to talk about the fundamentals. Because sometimes I think we get caught up in the numbers. And the fundamentals today aren't any different than they were before this debate. And this is – these are two unpopular people running against each other. The candidate who is in the spotlight, whose liabilities and flaws are in the spotlight is the candidate who's most likely to lose. Joe Biden went into that debate with the spotlight on him. He wanted that debate to turn the spotlight back onto Donald Trump. Not only did he fail on doing that, but now the spotlight isn't just on his weaknesses as a president in terms of his policies, it's not just about inflation or immigration. Now it's about whether he can functionally do the job, and whether he has the – the physical and cognitive ability to do that. And that is a very different fundamental that we've added to this fundamental problem for both candidates in this race. And the one other thing I'll say, the challenge of getting beyond this question because it’s not just – earlier it was about, "Can you get beyond the frustration about the economy or about the border?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right, right.
AMY WALTER:
Now it is about him personally. And when I see the – where the media is going to be for the next four months, it is going to be focused on every speech, every interview, any slip he makes is going to be highlighted and talked about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely. And – and Stephanie, I mean, Amy hits the nail on the head with the level of concern I think that Democrats have in this moment. Take us inside some of your conversations. What is the reality check there? How concerned are lawmakers about down-ballot races?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
They are far more concerned privately than they have said publicly. I mean it is –
KRISTEN WELKER:
We’ve all gotten those –
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
– a flat out panic –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– calls.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
– at this point. But you know, if you look at it, and if – if the Biden administration says it's up to the voters, well, three-quarters of the voters in a very divided America agree on one thing, and it's that he doesn't have the mental acuity to go forward. And the Democratic caucus agrees that Trump 2.0 would be dangerous for democracy. And now they're also looking at the potential that there are going to be significant headwinds for a down-ballot, and if we can't hold the House or the Senate with the Supreme Court rulings that expand the president's powers, this puts democracy in a really precarious place. And if you believe that, then it's reasonable for you to ask the president to really consider whether or not he is the best candidate, and to really consider the consequences of staying at the top of the ticket on the down-ballot races.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's really the disconnect, because President Biden, his campaign have argued, "Donald Trump's a threat to the democracy," every single day. And if those are the stakes, can they risk this? I have to go to you, because there is just growing pressure also for Republicans as they watch this unfold. Donald Trump had this post yesterday where he seemed to sarcastically say, "Joe Biden should stay in the race." Is he worried – are Republicans worried about what happens if Joe Biden gets out? If all of a sudden there's an infusion of excitement?
MATT GORMAN:
I mean, look, if – if Joe Biden stays in this race, to Amy's point, this race becomes about him entirely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
MATT GORMAN:
– his fitness for office, bar none. If it's Kamala, and I don't think there will be anyone other than Kamala, then this becomes much of the race we thought we were going to run two weeks ago.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
MATT GORMAN:
You know, it's the economy, immigration, crime. And she owns all of it. And – and I will also say this, one of the first questions she will have to answer is, "What did you know about Joe Biden's condition? When did you know it?" A lot of these stories coming out say that, you know, there's been some issues for about a year now, if not more. "You're the one person in the government he can't fire. You mean to tell me you didn't see anything about it?" She has to answer that, the first thing she says.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We should note, yeah, crime is one of the top issues for voters. It's also at a 50-year low right now. Mike, pick up on Matt's point. I mean, the – how – are there contingents – what are the conversations happening around the vice president?
MIKE MEMOLI:
Well, we have seen Vice President Harris have a much bigger role in the administration and in the campaign since the president announced he was running for re-election. We've seen that times ten just in the past week. They have been very deliberate, they have been very intentional about having the vice president physically with the president in some cases, but also speaking out very supportive. You also have top advisors in the campaign who have been telling donors, putting forward these, what I was told, were West Wing type scenarios of how Michelle Obama comes on the ticket or something. The most likely scenario –
KRISTEN WELKER:
There's been a lot of talk of Michelle Obama.
MIKE MEMOLI:
Oh my gosh. The most likely scenario, the cleanest scenario, to the extent that there is one, is it's going to be the vice president. And there are a lot of Democrats who really like the idea of a Harris-Cooper ticket. Governor Cooper of North Carolina, two-term governor, 16-year attorney general. This is two prosecutors who, to your point, crime's a big issue, who could make the rest of the campaign about prosecuting the case against Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Amy, it kind of struck me, Adam Schiff said, yes, he thought the vice president could win overwhelmingly.
AMY WALTER:
Look, I absolutely agree with Matt, that she comes in with the same liabilities in some ways that Biden does, which is she's had to answer for the administration and all of the issues that people are frustrated about, about the economy and immigration. The question is, can she now as – because she doesn't have the same challenges that the President does, change the conversation back to Donald Trump? Can she make this race about Donald Trump? Can she put together not necessarily the pro-Harris coalition but that anti-Trump coalition that has been successful not just in 2020 –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
AMY WALTER:
– but in 2018 and in 2022?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Matt, who's the candidate Republicans are most afraid of?
MATT GORMAN:
I mean, it's – it’s a different race whether it's Biden or it's Harris.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
MATT GORMAN:
I mean, I think we look back and Republicans remember the kind of disastrous campaign she had in the Democratic primary. It seemed like every other day there was a new health care position, a new position on marijuana. She hasn't proven to be an effective communicator on complex issues on a – on a lot of different things. And look, she certainly would help the Democrats on Roe, but she owns the border lock, stock, and barrel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
One of the things I keep thinking about when I think about the vice president potentially running is Donald Trump back in 2020 saying, "She had the best announcement." What do you make potentially? Do you think she could win overwhelmingly?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think – I think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
How are Democrats feeling about this?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think she should have consideration. But we shouldn't repeat the mistake that got us to this place, which was not to have a real primary. Primaries are a way to road-test your candidates. And so if there's a way for us to have a real primary, it gives the Democratic party an option. And then it allows them to coalesce behind that person post-convention.
AMY WALTER:
You know – sorry –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Go ahead.
AMY WALTER:
Kristen, political reporters have been talking for years about wanting to have a real political convention, a brokered convention.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
AMY WALTER:
And every year it gets pushed aside. This may be the one time –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
AMY WALTER:
– where this actually happens. Not necessarily brokered, but that this conversation if it's starting, it can't start the day of the convention. It has to start today.
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
But then Dems get a chance to bring the attention to their great bench, and to put forward what America wants, which is change.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I – one last thought, and then we have to go, Matt.
MATT GORMAN:
I – I really might be underestimating up until this point Joe Biden gutting this out. And he can thank Donald Trump's playbook in 2016 –
KRISTEN WELKER:
We could see it.
MATT GORMAN:
– and Bill Clinton's in '92 for that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We could see it. We wait with bated breath to see how it all plays out. Stick around, guys. When we come back, a Democratic president with low public approval ratings and a deeply divided country suddenly withdraws from the race. What his hand-picked successor said in the summer of 1968. Our Meet the Press minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The rising Democratic pressure on President Biden to step aside has echoes of 1968, the last time a president decided not to seek a second term. That president was Lyndon Johnson. Weakened by the Vietnam War, Johnson had never formally entered the race and bowed out five months before the convention. He was replaced on the ticket by his Vice President, Hubert Humphrey, who won the Democratic nomination but lost the general election. Vice President Humphrey joined this broadcast the day before the start of the Democratic National Convention.
[START TAPE]
LAWRENCE SPIVAK:
President Johnson seems to believe that, if he ran again, the country would remain divided, and his move towards peace would be suspect. Now, in view of your close identification with him and the administration, why do you think that what applied to him doesn't apply to you also?
VICE PRES. HUBERT HUMPHREY:
Because I have not been president. This is not to detract from President Johnson at all, but he has had to make the tough decisions, Mr. Spivak. It is President Johnson that has had to call the shots, so to speak, that has had to face up to the responsibilities, the management of our affairs. The Vice President of the United States does not do that. I knew when I became Vice President that we only had one president at a time and that I ought not to act like the president, nor should I try to pretend that I am president. I hope that I can go to the country – and I say I hope that I can go to the country and to unify it as best as possible, and to lead this country to good performance, to a higher standards. I think I can.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Donald Trump claims victory after the historic Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity. The panel returns next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. Let's talk about the big ruling in the Supreme Court, Stephanie, which basically gave presidents immunity over official actions that they take while in office. You obviously served on the January 6th Committee. Your committee recommended criminal charges against former President Trump. What was your reaction to the ruling, and quite frankly, what are the implications, do you think, of this ruling?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
You know, the context for me is that my family and I escaped political persecution when I was just a baby. So I know what a government that is unaccountable will do to its citizens. And I sat on the January 6th Select Committee, and I saw how our institutions were tested. The ruling – the Supreme Court ruling basically gives the presidency expanded powers and makes accountability through the justice system very difficult. So what that means is that, one, we have to elect presidents with character and values and morals that align with this country. But we also have to, in this particular election, hold the line in the House. The House is now the last place that can hold a president accountable. And that makes this election critically important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Matt, you know, former President Trump is taking a victory lap obviously, because it means his court cases will be delayed. But Democrats are pouncing on this. They are making the case, "Look, this is why Donald Trump will be more dangerous in the second term." That's the Democrats' argument. How do you think this plays out or factors in, if at all?
MATT GORMAN:
I – I keep coming back to the fact that in the background of all this talk around Joe Biden is that Trump has had probably the best ten days he's had since he was the president. You know, you look at the debate plunging the Democratic party into crisis but the SCOTUS rulings around Chevron, immunity, but also again, what that means for the sentencing. That was always the albatross, the sentencing between now and the convention, it's off the table for now at least. The VP will be a positive newsmaker. And I think, you know, he has stayed out of the headlines this last week and let the Democrats self-immolate. And look, this I think in large part has been the best-run campaign apparatus he's had in his three times he's ran for president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Amy?
AMY WALTER:
Yeah. There’s no doubt about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you think the implications are politically?
AMY WALTER:
Politically. I mean, the discipline is actually quite remarkable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Biden team acknowledges that, by the way.
AMY WALTER:
Right, that they really were hoping that he would come and make a story so that the – the – the focus could get off the president. I – I agree that this should've been a week where we started the roundtable –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right. That’s right.
AMY WALTER:
– with the Supreme Court case, and instead we're ending it, which tells you all you need to know about how difficult it is going to be for Democrats to make this case to the voters.
MIKE MEMOLI:
Kristen, some of the most interesting comments the president made at the rally on Friday were about this. He said that the president – President Trump really could be a dictator on day one. He said we have to politically exile him because of this immunity ruling. He talked about Project 2025 as well. And the problem is, they were overlooked because of where the focus is.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
That’s true.
MIKE MEMOLI:
And this is what Democrats are saying, back to your earlier point. The debate was supposed to put the spotlight back on Trump, and it's only really on President Biden right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Someone said to me that the immunity ruling is going to be the new Dobbs ruling. That Democrats are just going to continue to hammer it. Matt, we’ve got to talk a little veep-stakes.
MATT GORMAN:
Of course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Obviously just talked to Senator JD Vance about a range of different topics, including this immunity issue. We know that he is on the short list. We know this decision has to come soon. Senator Vance said, no, he hasn't gotten that call from former President Trump yet. Where do you see this heading?
MATT GORMAN:
I mean, Vance did a great job this morning. He'd be a very formidable candidate. And you know, one thing we haven't talked about is he has a military background. He'd be the only person out of the four VP and president nominees with a military background. And if Biden is going to make the case about Trump and veterans like he has in the debate and – and since, Vance could be an effective rebuttal for that. And – and so he's someone who comes into these scenarios, isn't afraid to do Sunday shows, and is able to get a message through. And he's impressive.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, Stephanie, it's interesting, I mean, he's viewed as the future of the MAGA movement. I guess the question is, can he appeal to independents, to moderate voters? Can he win those critical voters who are going to be necessary to ultimately win the White House?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I thought he was very good on your interview with him. He makes some of the more extreme policy positions that he is espousing seem normal because of the way he delivers it. And I think he fits the part for what Donald Trump looks for in a vice president. He – he looks – he looks the part.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do Democrats fear a – a Trump-Vance ticket, do you think?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think they are so focused on trying to figure out who their ticket is going to be right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's a fair point.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
That’s step two.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fair point. That's a fair point. Amy, how do you see it?
AMY WALTER:
I mean, I – I think that for – for Trump so much of this is, as we talked about, the look. But also it's sort of softening Donald Trump, or it – at the very least somebody who can come in and look like they could keep him in line. Not worrying about, you know, his – his sort of going off track. And this is the person who could do that. That's where Doug Burgum, I think, because of how low-key he is, he seems just – he’s not getting in fights with anybody, he is – is coming from a very different perspective in that way, could be a better pick.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, convention’s one week away. Mike Memoli, quickly, how long – one word answer – will it take before President Biden makes a decision?
MIKE MEMOLI:
This is a consequential week for him, and his team knows that. They've been giving him some tough advice that's coming from the outside. The question is, are they themselves hearing it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Great conversation, you guys. Thank you so much. That is all for today. Happy July 4th weekend. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
